So a couple of weeks ago I had a conversation with someone who happens to be an educated leader in a major denomination (not mine, but one with which I’m more than a little familiar), and much to my surprise, our discussion got a little, um, lively. It wasn’t tense; it wasn’t hostile; but it was most definitely lively. And I can’t quit thinking about it.
Initially I wasn’t going to post about it because I think the Body is divided enough as it is. In my opinion we do a pretty good job of majoring on the minors, and I’m not really interested in some sort of bloggity showdown about when in the service we should take up the offering or if there should be drums in church or if there should be an altar call every week or every 6th Sunday or not at all. At some point, at least to my simplistic line of thinking, a person has to determine if he or she trusts the leadership in his or her church, and if the answer is yes, well, then, zip it. Last time I checked there were a whole lot of lost people in the world, and participating in or listening to conversations about important theological matters like the cold green beans at Family Night Supper and how if Mrs. So-And-So can’t serve the food HOT, then she need not serve it at all – well, that really doesn’t accomplish very much in terms of furthering the Kingdom.
Maybe I’m wrong. Call me crazy.
I’m not going to re-hash the whole conversation in question because I think it’s unfair to the person on the other side of it. I don’t want to misrepresent anything he said; I don’t want to put words in his mouth; and I don’t want to paint him in a theological corner where he never meant to stand. We only talked for about an hour, and it very well may be that if we had been able to hash out our viewpoints for longer, I would’ve come to a clearer understanding about what he meant. I wish that had been the case, because, honestly, I’m still shaking my head about it all.
D. has been my sounding board for the last week, especially, and I don’t think there’s any angle we haven’t covered. I’ve talked to a couple of friends about it – though not for nearly as long as I have with D. – and we’ve been in agreement. I think that MAY be because we’ve all grown up around pretty similar teachings, and that’s why I’m opening up the discussion here. I guess I’m in need of a little extra iron to sharpen my own.
Anyway, here’s the statement – my statement – that started it all (it’s one that I’ve also written here on the blog in recent weeks):
“God is Sovereign. He knew this would happen and that He would allow it.”
The person I was talking to disagreed with me, essentially saying that there’s a realm of stuff that God just doesn’t mess with. God is present, he said, but accidents happen. If you go stand in the middle of an interstate, odds are you’ll get hit by a car. God gives us free will and we suffer the consequences (and I agree that we have free will, by the way, though I think my take on it is a bit different).
What do you think? And please know – I am NOT trying to create division. I’m just trying to make sense of it all. Is the viewpoint of the person I was talking to commonplace? Am I the odd (wo)man out on this one? I mean, I’m used to being a little more liberal on some issues than many of my denominational counterparts, but I don’t think I’ve ever felt more Southern Baptist than I did in the middle of that particular conversation. :-)
And please, go easy on me – and others – in the comments. Grace and mercy should be the order of the day. As always.
I will return to my normal, mildly amusing topics in the next post. I promise. :-)
I completely agree that God is sovereign and knows everything. He allows things to happen in all of our lives to serve His purposes. We may never understand why a young, happily married man with a beautiful wife and children stood up in a golf cart, lost his balance, took a terrible fall, and as a result, lost his life. We may never, never know this side of heaven why things like this happen…but make no mistake…God does. He knows all and allows these things to happen to fulfill His will. There’s alot of things that have happened in each of our lives that we still scratch our head about, cry about, curse about…because as humans we want to know why? But, God just asks us to trust by faith. Sometimes he reveals the purpose for certain evnets in our lives…and sometimes He doesn’t. Several years ago, my husband and I went through a very rough patch in our marriage…as close to divorcing as you can get. Five years after that difficult time, I was praising God for allowing us to go through that time. God used that circumstance to bring me to Him and as a result, I became a believer and my husband rededicated his life to Christ. Our marriage has never been better and I believe God knew and planned the whole thing…just to bring me to Him and to save my marriage.
Accident: event occuring by chance or unintentionally. Omnipotent: Almighty. Omniscient: All knowing. Omnipresent: Ever present. If accidents “happen” and God can’t prevent them, as it sounds like he’s saying, then God is NOT omnipotent. If He chooses not to prevent them, that’s different. There are NO accidents. I’ve always believed scripture supports the idea that nothing will touch me today that has not already passed through His hand, and He being all three of the above, ALLOWED it, it wasn’t just an accident. I know we have free will, and we make choices, but even those work within his being all three omni’s. No accidents, no chance, no luck. Just an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present God in control.
Well, since you brought it up…your statement in question may as well have been in neon lights when you first posted it. As a matter of fact, I read it over and over and over again. I thought maybe I was the odd man out…which, as you know, would not be unusual.
I tend to lean in the direction of “free will”, but I also don’t think it’s as cut and dry as that. There are multiple layers and levels to this whole theory that could be debated about forever and ever. Amen. :)
Bev has nailed it right on the head. This gentelman’s viewpoint would make God more of a spectator of life than God Almighty. A god who is forced to react to the choices we make. And that is not a god I choose to dedicate my life too.
Rom 8:38-39 “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” I realize that there are many different ways to view this verse, but I think one way, is that NOTHING is outside of God’s control.
(And I loved the line: “but I don’t think I’ve ever felt more Southern Baptist than I did in the middle of that particular conversation.” That must have been a funny feeling, huh?)
And see, Bev, to me, “chooses not to prevent them” is just another way of saying “allowed.” I agree with you totally. And at first that’s what I THOUGHT he was saying – but it was actually much more of a “He’s not concerned with” attitude…almost like there’s a realm of life where God just doesn’t give a rip (my words, certainly, not his). And when I said, “Well, then, how would you comfort my friend?” he said, very kindly and compassionately (I don’t want anyone to think he was being glib), “I would tell her that God is present, that He is there.” It all left me feeling very hollow.
wow, i agree with both Bev and sister…it was in neon lights to me as well when first posted but Bev put it in perfect terms…
I was actually thinking about this earlier when driving by the movie theater and noticing “World Trade Center” is showing soon..I think when evil is involved or sickness that brings in more of an issue that we live in a fallen world BUT God is still sovereign.
Well, I am with Sister – the debate could go on and on…I have a hard time with the saying that “it was just their time”…because why does God give us the gift of children and then take N at 6-yrs old??? Six or thirty-seven…to me that is such an unfinished life! I sure wish that I had some direction on this topic! xoxo!
God is sovereign. Period. That means that everything that happens is under His control. He isn’t surprised. I’ve heard this man’s viewpoint before and totally disagree. I’ve even heard people say that sending Jesus was God’s backup plan “in case” Adam and Eve sinned. In case? Like God was saying, “oops, didn’t expect that, now what do I do?” I don’t think so.
Yes, the Bible does say that the rain falls on the just and the unjust. Meaning that there are things that happen to us simply because we live in a fallen world. But God is still sovereign and could choose to stop the rain from falling if that was His will. If He allows it to fall, it is His will. NOTHING happens outside His will.
That’s why we can trust in Romans 8:28: ALL things work together for good for those who love God and who are called according to His purpose. He will use everything in our lives to work His will.
In his early 20’s, my non-believer dad put a loaded gun to his mouth and pulled the trigger. When it failed to go off, he looked and saw that it was stopped in the chamber.
At that point, he said “Ok, God- I’ll try it your way. I can always do this tomorrow.”
Some 50 years and several thousand souls saved later, he passed away last summer in his sleep from cancer.
I own that gun now. He left it to me when He died to remind me every day that God is in CONTROL. There is no chance.
That bullet still sits in the chamber – right where I fully, wholly, and unequivacally believe God left it that night.
Well, I was going to chime in with my 2 cents, but it seems it’s all been covered! I agree with you! God is in control. You’re not getting much debate here, if that’s what you were looking for! P.S. I’m so glad I found your blog!
Love Kelli’s comment — God could just as easily let the natural consequence happen and we would never think twice about it. God knows all and directs all. Yes, He gives us free will and free choice — but knows “before a word is on our tongue” that we are going to say it (from the Psalms). I think your friend/ acquaintance’s stance is common — because it’s too hard to worship a God we don’t understand, like when babies die, daddies die, children suffer, etc. We like to think that God didn’t know that was happening or He would have stopped it. There is no explaining it, but there is no doubt who the Master of it all is.
I think that, just like any truly loving parent, God allows us to suffer the consequences of our actions. However, accidents are not the same as natural consequences, are they?
He doesn’t promise us that we will like His decisions, only that He will be there with us every step of the way, right? Obviously I am not aware of the details, but my personal tradition is more Wesleyan, and I wonder if this person to whom you spoke isn’t misunderstanding something somewhere. Even those of us with a free-will bent know God is sovreign, and everything is in His control.
Well, if you ask me it seems that you both agree just are explaining yourselves differently. Yes, we have free will and yes God ALLOWS things to happen. If we’re stupid enough to DECIDE to walk into traffic, then we reap the consequences our actions deserved, thus God ALLOWING it to happen…if He didn’t allow it to happen, He could obviously put His hand around that car coming towards you and redirect it, right??
I view God in a WHOLE new light now that I am a parent…My children have the ability to make up their own minds, however, they are still being molded and shaped into making correct decisions. Sometimes I have to allow them to learn their own lesson. I can tell my kids a THOUSAND times that if they jump on the bed they’re going to risk getting hurt, but they’re not going to believe me until they actually fall and bump their heads.
The times that I’ve learned the most about God and was able to grow CLOSEST to Him are the times that He has ALLOWED me to make a poor decision and learn from my actions.
I hope this makes sense. :)
Stephanie – It makes perfect sense. At first I thought the same thing – that we had a semantics problem. And maybe we did, though I don’t think so after getting some clarification from someone else who was in the room. Plus, I may have shut down when I heard him say “outside the realm of God’s control.” :-) But the conversation, at least for me, has been a very, very good thing in terms of forcing me to (try to) articulate what I believe, why I believe it, and how it might differ from someone else’s perspective. And if that’s the case, then I think it was a mighty good conversation to have. – boomama
My goodness, you don’t shy away from the big questions, do you, my friend? Good for you.
Yes, I believe in a God who is absolutely sovereign. When I hear people talking about a time of rebellion in their lives and they say they were “outside of His will”, it makes me cringe a little. Outside of His PLEASURE maybe, but not out of His will. If there are things beyond His abilities to control, well, then, He’s not really God, is He?
I do not pretend to understand the mystery of how this all works together. We will never understand it fully this side of Heaven. Is it possible that free will and predestination can co-exist somehow, on the grand continuum of eternity? Yes, of course. Anything is possible with God. I don’t have to understand it. I don’t even have to fully understand Him. If He is good and He is sovereign, that’s good enough for me.
Here’s my take on it all…
God IS sovereign. And we do have free will. But I don’t believe there are areas which he “just doesn’t mess with”. There may be events or circumstances that he allows to happen, but it’s all according to His plan and His purpose.
Jeremiah 29:11- For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD…
Romans 8:28- 28- And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him.
Isaiah 55:8- “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.
1 Corinthians 1:25- For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
He is master of it all. We do live in a fallen world and “accidents” do happen, and they can be a result of our free will. But God is ultimately in control of it all. To say otherwise would take away His power.
As far as free will goes… People question how we can have free will if all is according to God’s plan. I see it like this;
Since God created time, he is outside of it- not bound by time. Therefore, when He gives us the choice, He know’s what we choose before we choose it because He’s already seen us make that decision. He’s ahead of us looking back. And some of the dumbest things we do, He allows to happen. Otherwise, how do we grow and learn? How would we come to trust Him more?
Casey – that’s exactly how I would explain myself if I were, you know, smart. :-) You said exactly what I have been trying to say. – boomama
I wasn’t so sure what exactly I thought before reading this post, but there have been a lot of good points and comments brought up, and I am going to have to side with the “God is sovereign and in control” point of view. I just think that he does know, and he does allow, and most importantly, he does care about us deeply…after all, he has numbered the hairs on our head.
Kelli – Your comment gave me chillbumps.
See, here’s my thing. God’s ways are not our ways. Like D. has said to me – we just see a little piece of the picture – He sees the whole thing, the spectrum of all of our lives – from every possible angle.
We have never been promised that we wouldn’t suffer. The world is fallen. We can’t escape that. But I think one reason we endure the hardships that we do is so that those things can shape our testimony, so that we can minister to someone else who is hurting later on. I mean, if I had my way – life would be easy all the time, I would never know pain or sorrow, and neither would the people I love.
But if I believe that God is who He says He is – and I do – then I have to trust that all things work together for good for those who love Him. And while people’s lives may be shorter than I’d like, I also know that there can be testimony through those lives that goes on for generations. I have to believe that there’s purpose in our pain – and that ultimately, though it’s difficult to understand on this side of heaven – that we are better for it.
There’s a verse in 2 Corinthians: “Our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”
Granted, losing a child or a husband hardly seems “light” or “momentary” – it seems earth-shattering, unthinkable. But on the radar screen of eternity, this life is just a little, tiny blip. That is so hard for me to understand – but I trust Him. Nothing that His hand touches is in vain. I believe that.
I had a similar conversation with a good friend of mine (Southern Baptist deacon) about knowing God’s will. I had told him that I wish I knew God’s plan for my life, and he pretty much said (I’m paraphrasing here) ‘There isn’t one. You do what you choose to do, and God will either bless it or He won’t.’
I believe that God is in control, and that nothing surprises him.
I also believe that we aren’t guaranteed any specific length of time in our earthly bodies. He determines when His work in us is complete, whether it takes several decades or several seconds. There is no 70-year warranty.
I appreciate the way you presented this topic Boomama – with great sensitivity and grace.
You showed such respect in the manner with which you described and represented the man you were chatting with.
In the challenge of trying to figure out the truth on issues such as these, we often fall from that good ol’ commandment of love. Your post ia a great example of how not to do that.
Let me ask you a question…
If God is not Sovereign and does not have control over everything and allows stuff to happen…
What would be the point of God?
I could go into an entire debate on the fact that the bible shows that God is Sovereign but what would be the point? If you don’t agree on that principle then why even worship God? Why trust him? Why follow him?
Yes. What you said. :-) My husband said the exact same thing. I agree. -boomama
BTW my comments are not meant to start anything… I just write what I think at that particualar moment. :)
Boomama,
This is one of those topics that I file under disputable facts. It is fun to talk about them, and argue about them, but at the end of the day we don’t actually have the answer. Jesus did not teach on it, and the rest of the Bible does not really spell it out concretely.
So therefore, we can debate it all we want, and your argument is perfectly biblical with lots of biblical support, but then again, so is the other side.
So we can talk and debate, and I suppose one day we will know the truth.
But until then we sometimes have to agree to disagree in the interest of church unity.
wow…i’m enjoying reading all this discussion. i fully believe that God is sovereign in all things. and i think of things like Hurricane Katrina and the tsunami and know that people struggle with whether or not God allowed those things to happen…why would he allow so many people to die…it just doesn’t seem fair. well God is not a fair God. and I truly believe that whether it be a child dying of a disease or a huge hurricane, they all happen under His authority whether we like it or not. it’s just one of the mysteries of his character that we may not ever fully understand. our minds are so limited and His ways are SO much higher than ours!! anyway, that’s my 2 cents (or more!).
I don’t think I have anything new to add except that I cannot believe there are areas (ANY!!) that God would not be concerned about. If he created us in His image, He cares about our every hair and cell, then it must be that He cares. I add amens by the dozen to the things said above, He is good, compassionate, and is never surprised and in total control. Great food for thought, Boomama…
I read once that God chooses to limit his sovereingnty to 1. our free will, and 2. our prayers. Scripturally, I think that proves itself out.
Life happens to all of us. God knows all of what happens and will happen. I believe, “Yes.” And that he is concerned. He tells my best friend when to buy the meat on sale and when to refrain. I believe her. Perhaps he only speaks on the mundane to those who want to really hear and trust that his way is better than the obvious.
Do we think that disease and death are something a good God “would never do”? Perhaps he sees something even worse than that if it didn’t happen.
Maggie at http://www.Magnanimity.wordpress.com
PS: I also have never read a blog entry I respected more and how to honor others you disagree with as you debate an issue mentally. I have great respect for the way you presented this. Thank you for the great example.
I agree maggie..our boomama is a class act huh?!
John 9: 1-3 “As he (Jesus) went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’
‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, ‘but this happend SO THAT THE WORK OF GOD
MIGHT BE DISPLAYED IN HIS LIFE.'”
Whether God CAUSES is to happen or ALLOWS it to happen, HE WILL use the situation to display his glory. Sometimes we see that glory–sometimes we ignore that glory–but it’s always there in spite of how we choose to see it.
I’m wondering; why does the thought that God permits/allows certain things to happen diminish His sovereignty in the eyes of some?
Why do some think that sovereignty and free will are mutually exclusive?
Okay, I’m not really ready to give an answer, but here is what I’m thinking about.
–The time in the Old Testament when Israel sacrifices children to the God Molech (Child sacrifice happens quite frequently). God says this is something that he never suggested nor did it enter his mind.
–The Lord’s prayer. Jesus prays that things will be done on Earth as they are done in Heaven.
–Genesis (until the fall) provides a picture of a world that is within the will and plans and purposes of God.
–Jesus as the new Adam that has come to reinstitute the new Creation.
–The temple as a means for God to draw near and Jesus’s claims that he is proof that God has drawn near. Meaning that before Christ came, God was not near.
–“The rain falls on both the just and the unjust” meaning that even our breath is a blessing, or that we need to reorient our idea of blessing in light of God’s reality and not our own. Rain in an agrarian society (just ask my dad) is a good thing.
Anyway, I’ll be thinking about this today. Thanks Boomama.
I believe God has a permissive will and a directive will. God permits us to do things He knows are not good or right for us. He also intervenes at times by His directive will. If God didn’t permit us to live by our mistakes we would be puppets. He may allow illness in our lives by His permissive will, then intervene by His directive will in answer to the effectual fervent prayers of His people, healing the illness. God’s will will be done with or without my help, agreement or understanding. That’s why He’s God and I’m not.
I agree with the others who’ve commented before, BooMama. Thank you for helping me nail down my beliefs on this subject and for the Godly nonconrontational(dang, that’s a big word!) forum here. I respect this discussion, that we can all speak without tearing down one another, only building up and learning from one another.
Good stuff! :-)
I think I most exactly agree with Diane…and I also believe that there is the enemy (the devil) at work in the world, which is why there is sin, and yes, suffering. I honestly do not believe that it pleases God for people to suffer…He has compassion. I think when Paul talked about trials and suffering for the faith, it was just that…persecution of the early church, which still can happen today.
And yes, God allows suffering in a world currently given over to sin, but it is not His perfect will. He is touched with the feelings of our affirmity. And I do believe that He is still healing people today, just as He did 2000 years ago.
And if other Christians have a different belief than this, that is alright…we are still brothers and sisters in Christ. As you said, Boomama, there is enough division within His Church and we don’t need to “major on the minors”…I like that!
Blessings…
We live in a fallen world. God never promised us life would be easy, and trust me at times it is not. God knew from the very moment of Paul’s conception that he would call him home when he did. There is absolutely NOTHING out of the realm of God’s control. God does allow things to happen in our life to fulfill his will and purpose for us.
I was raised in a Satanic Cult for the first 19 years of my life, which consisted of sexual,abuse from both parents and there sect, as well as torture and you name it. God did not chooses to take me out of that until 19, yet he did not CAUSE it. My Parents choices caused it not God. God did allow people in my life through only one year of foster care to sow a seed and introduce me to God, and no I wasnt removed from it, so I stayed in it. Now is God a Soverign God? Oh yes he is. He already knew I would go through that, and he still protected me in it. And yes my testimony through that is fulfilling a purpose for my life. We do suffer for our faith, but it is a whole lot better than serving Satan.
First, let me say there are some amazing comments left here! I feel so blessed to have had this “discussion” with all of you. It happens to be one close to my heart.
When we lost our son, I struggled. Through it all, I came to this understanding…God is most definitely sovereign! He is absolutely in control! There are things that He allows to happen…but allowing the event does not mean that he is okay with the tragedy that we suffer. “His will” is that we turn to Him for the comfort and healing. He waits for us with open arms, to provide the kind of comfort that only He can provide.
My heart could not bear the thought that my loss was simply an “accident that happened”. God did not cause my pain and tragedy, but He allowed it to happen. He could not be the cause of the pain, and also be the Healer of it (which I know He is!)
God never promised that life would be easy, or that there would be no ‘darkness’, but He promised to walk with me through the darkness and rescue me from it! Praise His name!
I hope I have not rambled too much…just one girl’s thoughts on her God who has walked through the darkness with her and rescued her from it!
Blessed be Your Name, Oh God!
WOW. Interesting discussion. I have nothing new to offer besides what’s been said. I’m firmly in the God-is-sovreign-and-nothing-happens-that-is-not-under-his-authority camp, which of course I believe is entirely backed up by Scripture. :-) Of course we will never come to agreement this side of glory, so the best we can hope for is that we will be humble and diligent when we seek to understand and discuss this great mystery of our faith.
I think that somewhere in the conversations surrounding this idea there is a special middle place…..a place where God is sovereign-where He is in control of it all and He knows exactly what is going to happen-and a place where we have a free will.
Of course we make choices, and sometimes those choices don’t fall within God’s perfect will (if they did, none of us would ever sin)–but in the end, God is still in control.
If we stand in a freeway, We will probably get hit by a car-that is obvious. But what isn’t always obvious is how God can keep us from getting hit, or once we are hit He can heal us. Or, if it is His will and His timing, we might die. He will ultimately do whatever He wants with our life-it is up to us to submit to His will and follow His personal direction.
I don’t have a perfect answer, but I do know that our ability to make choices doesn’t limit God’s sovereignty. He always knows, He always cares, and He is always in control
Excellent topic of discussion! One point to keep in mind is whether or not you are a believer in Jesus Christ. If not, then you are living outside His desire and will for you, and the eternal consequences are far worse than what any of us may face here on Earth. I don’t write this to scare anyone. In fact, my heart is very tender to anyone who does not yet know Him and understand how much He loves you. Jump to the link in the quotes “http://www.family.org/topics/A0019922.cfm” if this is you or you’re not sure if this is you. It has some great articles.
God desires *most* of all to have a relationship with each of us. As believers, we know God is Sovereign and He is working out everything in our lives for His glory (not ours). If we (Christians) sin, then we experience consequences, but we are covered by grace when we recognize this sin and confess it. As believers in Jesus, we have the ultimate hope that we will live eternally in complete oneness with God — no pain, no heartache, no sin! In the meantime, while we’re here, we’re called to minister to others and tell others about Him — that’s our primary purpose on Earth. And so many of you are doing that so wonderfully in your unique ways through your blogs. When we get to Heaven, there will be no one to minister to. In my life, my pains and heartaches have helped me minister to others in a more tender way…for His Glory!
I just wish I could have half the faith of all of you. A quarter. A dime, even. I so want to believe. I grew up with these teachings, but the faith? I lost that somewhere along the way, or maybe I never had it in the first place. I’m inspired by these comments and mournful at the same time. Oh, how I want to believe in a Sovereign God. Oh, how I want to believe in God.
Carrie: My heart goes out to you, and I hope you don’t mind when I write that I am praying for you. A friend recently put it this way: the Enemy/Satan wants us to believe that God doesn’t really love us or care. Then, we’ll never know the eternal good of God — the eternal life in Heaven with Him. I included my email address if you want to write me directly.
Carrie: oops…jdsurferchick@yahoo.com
Very intersting topic. I am reading “Lies Women Believe and the Truth that Sets them Free” By Nancy Leigh Demoss. It really has challenged me to the fact of does God really care but He often doesn’t do things the way we want. It’s that learning to trust God during the good and the bad thing.
I believe He does care. But what He cares most about is 1. Glorifying Himself and changing me than solving my problems. 2. God has an eternal purpose He is fulfilling in the midst of my problems. 3. God wants to use my problems as part of His santifying process in my life. 4. No matter what problem I am facing, God’s grace is sufficent for me. (Taken from Nancy’s book page 58) I often time want to treat God as my Genie in a bottle. He is supposed to do what I want when I want. But that is so not true. His first purpose it to glorify himself and bring us into closer unity with Him. Thank you for the thought provoking discussion.
If God is not in control–if He can’t stop things or change things–He is not God. Period.
I find no solace in a God who isn’t in control.
Wow- what a conversation! I have to say I believe wholeheartedly in God’s sovereignty. He is the King of Kings sitting on the throne. Thus, He can make the choices that further His kingdom.
We also live in a fallen world: God does not cause sin but allows Satan power to roam. In our fallen state, we cannot by our own free will choose to follow Him. Nothing in our dead state desires to be near a Holy God. From scripture, I would define “free will” as moral responsibility to which we are held accountable for the consequences. As Bev stated so well, from the God-inspired scriptures, He is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. When taking the thought process to the logical conclusion, we don’t want the responsibility of our “free will” to fall on us. Our “will” (i.e. control of our situation, thought processes, choices) would change daily, never yielding a secure salvation.
He is who He says He is: Holy, Just, Righteous, Long-suffering. I praise Him for not being fair, for I would have continued to be dead in my transgression. His Grace has provided the before-the-earth was created plan for my salvation. (BTW-I’ve gleaned a lot of wisdom from the biblically inspired comments from above). Anyway, back to grace, if I examine from a secular perspective, I don’t understand His will to choose. I thank Him for it.
We have a Savior who understands us because He lived among us. In the depths of sorrow, we can cling to the fact that He has suffered beyond our imaginations; yet, He chose to not summon legions of angels because He desired to fulfill His Father’s will. He chose in His role as God the Son to take our place as that substitutionary sacrifice because His will and the Father’s are one.
Sorry for the stream-of-consciousness thought process. All the above ranting should be taken as one big amen to boomama, bev and the bunch.
I pray that God would use all the words of my online mouth to serve and praise Him.
Does that gentleman want me to believe that the same God that has numbered the hairs on my head doesn’t really care about the details of my life?
Nothing, happens to us that is not first sifted through the hands of an Almighty God.
We have our pain and struggle on earth due to the fall of man and the things that were set in motion with that. One day our pain and struggle will end but for now we must endure it. Thank God we do not endure it alone. . .God can redeem the darkest moment and bring life to the deepest pain.
This discussion is great!
My hubby(a Southern Baptist minister) and I started discussing all of this after I read your post this evening. My husband always goes back to the Bible, as many who have already posted did. There are many, many circumstances of sorrow and pain throughout the Bible. God allowed those things to happen and we can see by reading His Word how He used those circumstances for His Glory. I think the ultimate testament to this is Jesus Himself. God knew and the Bible prophesizes long before Jesus was born that He would die to save us from our sins. Although God would did not want to see His son suffering and dying, He allowed it to happen b/c He knew how the rest of history would play out.
Like some others have said, I hope I’m making some kind of sense.
Sorry, I didn’t read all the comments before throwing mine out there (because 42? Good gravy!) so this may have already been said…You’re both saying that God allowed it. I think he’s saying that God categorically allowed it, and I don’t really agree with that. I have to say that it seems an insensitive thing to say regarding your friend’s situation…but I wasn’t there for the whole conversation.
Wow, Boomama! I step away from your blog for all of a day, and this is what I come back to! Deep, deep:)
My brain is too tired to think hard on this, but here’s my first thought: Someone who created the entire earth probably knows everything that’s going to happen on it. He’s smart like that.
You said “God is Sovereign. He knew this would happen and that He would allow it.”
I have to agree that God gave us free will, and if we chose to walk into the middle of the street, yeah God might allow it, because we chose it. So I think what I said might be a mix between the two…but I’m not sure…
Wow what a topic and great comments. I agree with Shannon it is a great mystery! And one we really can’t understand. Free will and predestination seem unable to coexist, yet they do. We try to wrap our minds around it when it is really something we can only “see” in the Spirit. So we argue and debate doctrine and lose our focus on Christ. I think this happens too much in the church!
And no I am not saying you shouldn’t have brought it up. Or that anyone here has lost thier focus.I am glad you opened the discussion. It is interesting. I enjoy the spiritual discussion!
WAIT I HAVE A GREAT EXAMPLE! This is true by the way!
I just thought of a great example. My grandfather (Grady) and grandmother (Elizabeth) lived in Texas years ago. They were friends with a man, we’ll call him Joe. Joe did not know the Lord but saw the Lord in my grandparents. My grandparents prayed, and prayed for Joe but Joe did not understand God’s love for him.
One day my grandmother (Elizabeth) prayed and told Joe something to the effect of “I wish you would come to the Lord, I would do whatever it took to show you God’s love for you, even if I had to die in your place…like Jesus did…”
A few days went by and my grandmother Elizabeth had a car accident and was killed instantly. My dad was only 4, his brothers were 3 and 6.
In my grandfather Grady’s situation I’m sure he struggled with understanding why the Lord would let this happen. I know my dad did, his mother died, he doesn’t even remember her.
My grandpa Grady remarried, Jean. Last year my grandma Jean visited a church in Texas with a friend. This person was referencing the funeral of a specific man named Joe, and the testimony of how he came to know the Lord….(I heard a copy of the sermon myself…it’s true)
…yeah you guessed it. He came to know the Lord because my grandma died and he knew that she and my grandfather loved him very much.
The moral of the story is, it stinks that my real grandma died, and that my dad doesn’t know his “real” mother…but she was ready for heaven, and Joe was not. It took her going home to the Lord before Joe understood love.
Bad things happen, and there is a reason and we might not always find out why. My family had the opportunity of figuring it out, and that was a blessing.
Sometimes God uses things that happen for positive things in the lives of others.
Sorry BooMama, one more thing:
God is completely sovereign, infinite in wisdom and perfect in love.
Enough said!
I believe that everything happens for a reason. Sometimes to some people things seem to happen by chance, or by accident or that God doesn’t care, but that is only because they can’t (Or chose not to)see the underlying meanings. I can’t think of a thing that has happened in my life that after a lot of thinking I couldn’t pinpoint all the connections and outcomes that were involved in one simple incident. Not only is God sovereign, he’s a freaking genius! I hope I didn’t come off as arrogant there, I feel like my voice might have sounded a little haughty, I did not mean for that. I feel humble as pie right now :-)
I have to say I’m with the majority who believe in the sovereignty of God. I believe He knew all the days of our lives before time began and that includes our good and bad choices. Free will and sovereignty aren’t mutually exclusive terms in my book.
As far as why bad things happen, I think there are things that we’ll only completely understand once we get to heaven. I think He’s read the whole book and we only know the chapter we’re on.
You mean you didn’t argue about contemporary worship or the color of the pews? Now that is SB, girlfriend. LOL
Seriously, I agree. I mean, that is what I was taught. That God is Soveriegn. He gave us free will. He knows what is going to happen. Even if we do something stupid. There is no “accident.” My old pastor-one I learned a LOT from (southern baptist, by the way) used to say that “There are 2 Wills of God. His Perfect Will, His Permissive Will. In His Perfect Will, we would choose to do what is right. In His Permissive Will, things happen, He allows them to happen and they may be bad. But that doesn’t mean it was an accident. God doesn’t change His Mind. He knows the future. Uh Oh- not trying to get into predestination. Saying that things are an accident, or that God doesn’t get involved, kind of sounds like He isn’t the Authority. If something is happening, then someone is in charge. Right? If He isn’t in control of those things, then who is? I, for one, trust and rest in the belief that He is in control of everything. He may not directly make it happen. But He could stop it anytime He wants to. Why He doesn’t?- because we live in a fallen world, tainted by sin. Not to say the people who suffer from hurricanes are being punished. But, all of us do suffer the consequences of sin in the world in life. That doesn’t mean He sees us sin, then makes Katrina happen. Is this a novela or what? I ramble. Let me get off here and look for some scripture. Surely I have something along these lines underlined in my massive King James Version. :>)))
PS-
I heard this said once,”If you think God isn’t concerned with the little things in life, you are wrong. I mean, your big things are little things to Him. He IS GOD!”
I commented “on the run” earlier this afternoon, but I’m not finished. :)
There’s no doubt that we’ve all had varying degrees of pain and/or suffering in our lives. Some think about the quality of love that God shows us, and believe that it means that He will protect us from suffering – that somehow our faith will become a shield so that we will never have to know any kind of trouble. Much of Jesus’ teachings is about a loving and caring God. He didn’t say that God would protect us from suffering, but that God would meet us in the midst of our suffering with strength, courage and hope.
Whatever bad things may happen, we have to trust the affirmation, the promise that God will meet us in the midst of our pain. We must trust God that our suffering will lead to a new understanding of redemptive glory.
So Sister, maybe this is what he was trying to get across when he said, “I would tell her God is present, that He is here.”
Or, I hope that’s what he was saying.
xo,
Okay. . .had to weigh in again. I just got out of the think tank (aka: shower) where I was still mulling this one over. I think we sometimes doubt God when our prayers are not answered in the way we want them to be. A dear loved one has cancer, and we pray with all of our heart that God heal that loved one, and we KNOW that God has the power to do so, and our loved one dies. Is that God throwing his hand up in the air because he decided long ago to let them die?
Absolutely not.
Jesus taught us how to pray. . .and as someone mentioned earlier, he said we are to pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Our earthly requests must line up with God’s heavenly will. (“Prayer doesn’t change God. It changes me.” C.S. Lewis)
We must view the answers God provides through a heavenly lense. Sometimes that is very hard to do. . .and sometimes that causes people to doubt. . .it is easier to believe that God just lets things happen rather than come to grips with the fact that his plan is larger than we are. . .and that his plan is to draw all men to him in whatever way he deems necessary.
God has set eternity in the hearts of men so that we seek him in regards to his will for us and how to best glorify him.
This has been a wonderful discussion–I have learned a lot from everyone’s comments. . .and we would probably not normally all get the chance to discuss such an issue.
Also had to chuckle at, “If Sister So & So can’t serve the beans hot, then she need not serve the beans at all.” Oh my. . .too true, too true.
You done made me get out the Strong’s Concordance. :>)) I learned something from your discussion. Thanks. Any discussion that prompts you to look up scripture is a good one.
This is what I found (New Living Translation)
“All the people of the earth are nothing compared to Him. He has the power to do as He pleases among the angels of heaven and with those who live on earth. No one can stop Him or challenge Him, saying, “What do you mean by doing these things?”
Daniel 4:35
I think you did a good job following this verse-1 Peter 3:15-16 :>))
I agree with all of Melaine’s comments, 100%.
Roxanne, the only thing is prayer DOES and CAN change God. Otherwise, why would we pray?
In fact read this in(Gen 18:20-33) God decided to get rid of those in Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham pleaded to God [although I am not understanding as to why] and God to save the city if He found just fifty righteous people. God agrees. Abraham talks to God again, pleading God to save the city for just forty five righteous people, God agrees. Abraham pleads with God to save it for just forty people, again God agrees. Abraham hesitates, and in fear (v30) pleads God to save the city for just thirty people, God agrees. Abraham questions God saving the city for twenty people, God agrees. Abraham fears the Lord (v32) and tries to save the city on behalf of just ten righteous people, God agrees. The whole conversation, Abraham persuaded God to change his mind. I believe this is an example of why prayer is effective.
Therefore, I am under the impression that prayer CAN change God’s mind…otherwise why “waste” time praying to a God we cannot change anything in his plans?!
Now I don’t completely l understand so those of you who are like “wah??” please, just realize I’m making a point. I am not a theologan…yeah I can’t even SPELL it!
I’m not interested in serving a God that won’t “mess with” certain things.
Cast your cares upon the Lord, unless it is one He won’t mess with. Then you can just forget it.
A bird doesn’t fall without him knowing for heaven’s sake.
He knew what was going to happen. And he allowed it.
God is Sovereign.
The end.
;)
Sounds like Deism. It’s amazing how different Christians stand in their doctrine, once you get to talking about it. I don’t believe the scriptures support a god that sits in the heavenlies, wringing his hands wondering what we’re going to do next.
We don’t like to think the Lord is in control because so much of what we see happening here, WE have decided is evil or ugly. But, really, when He cautions us to not lean on our own understanding and explains to us that His ways are above our ways, who are we to say what is wicked when it is accomplished according to his purpose?
To believe that He is not sovereign; to believe that things happen outside His will is prideful. It smacks of an attitude that we know better how to manage and judge than He.
Lori – It’s so funny that you said that, b/c when I was telling D. about the conversation, he said, “So stuff happens, God’s there, the end?” :-)
And just for clarity, the person I was talking to really disagreed with the word “allowed.” He took issue with that word more than anything. He said that he disagreed with the word “allowed” because there are things that are outside of God’s control. And “outside of God’s control” is what I took issue with.
I did really enjoy the conversation, though. I’ve just been trying to understand where he was coming from, and that’s been harder for me than I expected.
Maybe I didn’t explain myself clearly. . .didn’t mean to say or imply that there is no need to pray–it’s just that when we receive answers that are not what we asked for–sometimes it causes people to doubt God’s sovreignty. . .what we ask for in prayer must align with the will of God–either his (to borrow from the one who spoke of) “permissive” will or his “perfect” will. God’s perfect will was to blast Sodom and Gomorrah. . .and so he did. His perfect will was to bring destruction upon that sinful place and wipe it from the face of the earth. I don’t think Abraham’s request changed God’s mind. I think God permitted Abraham to bargain with him but He had a lesson in mind for Abraham all along. YOu see how the number of righteous people gets smaller and smaller. . .the God of the universe–doesn’t normally let us “whittle” him down in prayer.
Prayer is our means of communication with the father. Through that communion with him in prayer our hearts should yearn more and more for his will to be done. Sometimes his answer to us is yes–sometimes it is no–but prayer should always draw us closer to God and should ultimately bring our hearts in alignment with what his will may be.
Here’s an example. I pray for my children. I pray that God draw them close to him. After I pray it, however, I am not in charge of HOW he draws them close to him. I’m not at liberty to give God suggestions and think he will take them. He is God and sees (as someone else said) the snapshot of eternity.
So absolutely. . .we are commanded to pray–we are taught how to pray by Christ himself–but a LARGE part of that prayer is that God’s kingdom come and God’s will be done. . .God ultimately decides how that happens.
There was a man (Bob) who recently lost his wife of many years. He said that he prayed for God to take care of her and she died. Later Bob said what he really wanted was for God to leave her on earth so that he (Bob) could take care of her himself. What God did was take her home so that he (God) could take care of her.
Bob’s prayer was answered–God took care of his wife–just not in the way Bob initially wanted. God did not need to change to do what Bob asked of him in prayer–Bob needed to change his view of God’s solution to his prayer.
Roxanne, I didn’t mean to offend you either. Sorry I know that quote wasn’t even from you…. :) No hard feelings?!
And I have a different view of prayer. I believe that prayer is vital to line US up with HIS will. He is unmoved; there is no shadow of changing with Him. He allowed Abraham to “barter” with Him for Abraham’s edification. Much as I get excited for my children if they think to ask me for something I’ve already decided to give them anyway.
I’m not so dogmatic on this, but in all my study, I’ve not seen anything about prayer that can’t be explained this way. I don’t know that I really want a say in the master plan down here — do you? Really?
My, oh my, oh my.
I could get all tangled up in my ample underwear over this question, but I will try to be succinct.
My initial response to BooMama’s post (before reading the comments) is that of course God is aware of every nuance of activity in His universe. Every thought, motivation, mistake, cell division, long division, long underwear…now we’re back on underwear. NOTHING escapes His awareness. God exists equally in all time, as it is of His creation. He does not look forward or back.
Reminds me of a book,”Flatland, a Romance of Many Dimensions,” by Edwin A. Abbott. For a summary, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland. In brief, the narrator of the story is exists in a two-dimensional world. A third dimension is inconceivable to his countrymen. I’ll spare you the Cliff’s Notes, but the take-home here is that it is simply not possible for us created earthlings to accurately describe or comprehend the omni(everything), spaceless, timeless, originless creator of our little corner of oblivion.
So what, then? Does it mean we don’t try? No, no, NO!! It means that we look EVERYWHERE for every facet of our Abba that we can discern. Not so we can fit first this and then that into some misbegotten puzzle. The insights, experiences, truth and bits of divine wisdom we collect aren’t pieces of a puzzle to be assembled. They are expressions of eternal ecstatic adoration, grace-given to be treasured; taken out and viewed as reminders of our real home and our real Father. They are the “eben-ezer”: our stones of help, commemorating God’s provision. They instruct us and encourage us and enable us to bear witness to His greatness so that His name will be lifted up so that He may draw all men unto Himself.
To me, one of the many mysteries of the one, true, multi-dimensional God is how, because He exists outside the constraints of time, he knows every word I will speak before I’ve formed the thoughts and yet the will to form the thoughts and speak the words remians entirely my own.
God doesn’t have a “Plan B”.
The pain of this world grieves its Creator, make no mistake. John 16:33
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
It’s already been done. In the light and scope of eternity, the world has been overcome. How, really, could it already be accomplished if God hadn’t been aware all along?
Incredible discussion! BTW, “succinct” flew out the window…to those who persevered to the end, I hope you find a cure for your insomnia some day.
;~D
For the record, I am just a little bit in love with all of you now. :-) Such wisdom and discernment here – and I don’t think a discussion like this one would be as orderly in a church setting because people would talk on top of each other, the discussion would get sidetracked…but through this bloggy medium, each comment is like a treasure in and of itself.
Just wanted to tell y’all that before I went to bed…can’t wait to re-read all the comments again in the morning.
And Carrie – just so you know, just in case you’re reading this – your comment went straight to the center of my heart. I’ve read every single one of these comments, but yours touched me more than any other. I bet the rest of these women would say the same.
I say this with love: I believe God is sovereign. He knows what will happen and allows it to happen. We do have free will.
Ok please don’t hollar at me but I really hope ya’ll are wrong. Wait, give me a chance to explain. Ya’ll are saying God controls everything is what I am getting out of this anyway. I was born on my dad’s birthday and I love him very much but he sexually abused me from the time I was 3 until I turned 18, finished high school and moved out the next morning. As a child I read my Bible every night, I believed in God as only a child can with everything I had in me. I couldn’t see my dad as bad so I split him into two people in my mind, the good daddy and the bad man. The abuse was so bad that I would beg God to help me, I begged God to figure out a way to stop it, I begged God to just take me to Heaven with him. But he never did so as a teenager I still couldn’t hate my dad so I hated me. I did all kinds of stuff that could have, should have killed me but nothing did. Finally I took a bunch of pills and drank a bunch of alcohol and that almost did kill me but a policeman found me and took me to the hospital. I almost died but I didn’t. Then I became very angry with God. I was out of my parents home by now and I didn’t need God’s protection anymore is how I saw it. I was so angry at God. I dared him all the time to take my life. I would do really stupid stuff and yell at the heavens that God wasn’t as strong as me cause he couldn’t kill me. I spent years spouting hate of God, to myself mostly cause I hadn’t asked him to punish my dad I had simply asked him to rescue me, to even take my life to rescue me and he didn’t or wouldn’t. Then I spent the last few years not even really thinking of God nor asking any thing of Him and within the last year I realized I wasn’t angry at God anymore. Within the last year I have even thought many times of getting back into church and have tried to pray (it is hard). Within the last few weeks I have even picked out the church I want to visit and now ya’ll are telling me God knew this was going to happen to me as a child??? That it was God’s plan for it to happen?? That God allowed it to happen?? How do I not get mad at God all over again?? Sorry if this is to long. But please someone explain to me how not to hate God. I mean if God allowed this to happen to your kid would you just praise God and say he had a reason for it?
mouse
I, too, come from an abusive background. It is one of the worst nightmares to go through. Our dads were living in sin, outside of God’s will. THEY chose that horrible evil. We don’t have to let their sin cause us to be drawn away from God. God has helped us survive it, albeit with some scars that only He can heal. I believe what He does is allow the evil to be used for good, if we submit to His will and follow Him. I believe we are still here because God has amazing plans for us to carry out here on Earth. Don’t let this discussion prevent you from going back to church. The fellowship with other Christians will help you heal — believe me, it has helped me.
I don’t have time to read through all the comments, but I believe absolutely that God is sovereign. And yes, what others may mean for evil, He can use for good. But He still knew it would happen, and He still allowed it. I know that I am a better wife, friend, and Child of God after surviving a year in which I had 3 or 4 of the major biggy stress factors happen to me.
I try not to question why. I choose to just believe in His love for me, and His wisdom in knowing what is best.
Boomama, you were definitely brave to start a discussion like this but how encouraging that it seems to be easily accepted and discussed by those reading. I don’t think I could have done it as tactfully as you have. You definitely have a gift.
Anyway, I’ve never been one to get into “theological” discussions. I know what I believe but have always been a listener in those times. I would absolutely be terrified if I had to live my life believing that God was not in control of everything that has happened and will happen to myself and my family…everything from the struggles my family went through while we were growing up to now having a child with a disability. God has put His hand on everything He has given us and in that I find comfort. Even though there are many times that I question God and even find myself doubting what He is doing, I have to stop to remember that everything is from Him and part of His most holy and perfect will.
Woo doggy. . .Ok Mouse. . .first of all. . .if I could hug you really, really big, I would. If I could make your past go away, I would. I cannot tell you how incredibly sorry am that you’ve had to deal with such tragedy. I, personally, have never had that happen to me. I do deal with this question on a daily basis because I teach in public schools. I see the best and worst of humanity sitting in my classroom all wrapped up in the children they send to school each day.
There is not an easy answer to your question. As hard is as God is trying to draw us TO him, Satan is trying almost as hard to draw us AWAY from God. I say almost, because the Bible tells us that Christ has overcome death–he’s overcome Satan–and God will win the final battle.
But we live in a world where sin is alive and well. We see the evidence of death and destruction all around.
Your father made horribly sinful, incredibly selfish choices. Because of how he chose to live his life, you suffered immeasurably. Now you get to choose how you will live. Reading God’s word is the best way to see how much God loves you.
These thoughts are overwhelming to me—so many weighty matters all trying to cram themselves into a straight order into my small, human brain.
But know this, Mouse. God loves you. He loves you so much he wrapped his own son up in human flesh and sent him here for you.
God will provide healing for your suffering here on earth through a relationship with him and with other Christians. He will use those scars to make something beautiful of your life. He has wonderful, glorious plans for you. Just trust in him.
BooMama, I’m so glad you mentioned Carrie. I was afraid her post got lost. Carrie, I will pray that God gives you the gift of faith and understanding. Search the Bible if you are desiring faith. Start with the gospel of John. And stick around if you have any questions. I’m sure all of us would be willing to discuss any questions you have.
Mouse, that is the most heartbreaking thing I’ve ever heard. And the fact is, we cannot always understand why horrible things like that happen to innocent children. There are no easy answers. But we have to believe Romans 8:28 and remember that God can heal our pain. That probably sounds trite, but it’s not meant to at all. I pray you will find peace in Him.
This has been a great thread (is that the right word in blogland, lol??) Even if we don’t agree, we are seeking to understand one of God’s biggest mysteries in a respectful and humble way. It’s great to see.
I have to say that I agree with you.
Just like Job’s life.
God knew and God allowed.
Also the biggest thing that God does for us is allow us to have a choice. He knows full well what we are going to choose, but He gives us a choice to be in His will or outside of His will, to choose Him or not. He doesn’t force us to worship Him and follow Him, He wants our worship to be true.
That’s my Southern Baptist viewpoint.
Wow, what a post and what a wonderful mix of comments.
My view is that God is so much bigger than we our that when we try and understand him with our finite minds, we simply can’t. His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. God is in control, AND we have free well. God has set the world in motion, with its laws and chemistry and so on, and allows things to happen according to natural rules the vast majority of the time. CAN he change the laws of physics? Of course. Jesus’ miracles demonstrated that, and events in Moses’ life, etc. DOES he do so? Not very often.
Lots of people have said that God is sovereign, but (unless I missed it in my skimming) nobody has said what they understand by the word sovereign. It means supreme, subject to nobody, with ultimate authority and power. Of course that all describes God. But sovereign doesn’t actually mean ‘in control of everything all the time.’
Did God ordain the Fall? No, I don’t think so. He gave Adam and Eve free well, and then allowed them to make their choices. Does he ordain child abuse and car accidents and so on? No, I don’t think so. Even more important than God’s sovereignty is his love. He can, of course, turn anything (however appalling) into good for those who love him. But to say he deliberately allowed particular evils to happen makes him less loving in many people’s eyes.
I haven’t suffered the awful circumstances mentioned by many in the comments, but I had a stressful year awhile back with some things happening which I was sure God had not ordained. I prayed, of course, and nothing changed in the circumstances. But I changed. I learned to hold out my hand to him despite circumstances, to rely on him, the Rock and Anchor (to mix metaphors!) rather than on what I expected or hoped from other people.
But in a way, that’s just me trying to rationalise. There are some things we can’t understand this side of Heaven, and the older I get the more I realise there are often two – or more – equally valid points of view, even if (to our finite understanding) they appear to be contradictory.
Sorry, typos, should proof-read before hitting ‘send’.
I also meant to add that since God is infinite and outside of our limited time frame, it’s not that he ‘knows in advance’ what’s going to happen, he sees it all in his eternal present. As someone (probably CS Lewis) once said, if God is ‘here’ on earth and also ‘there’ on a planet 10,000 light years away, then his ‘here’ encompasses not just our ‘now’ but the ‘now’ of the other planet, which happened (from our perspective) 10,000 years ago. I may have the physics wrong there but you see what I mean. Infinite in size also implies infinite in time.
I love these kind of questions. They really get you thinking. I believe that God knows the choices you are going to make and the things that are going to happen before they ever do. I believe he does give us free choice/free will but He does know all and He knows what we are going to do. I hope this answers your question. Basically, I believe He is in our past our present and in our future. He is there right now.
Blessings,
Trixi
Oh, heavens to mergatroid. Are we STILL at this?
Enough! When do we get to hear your review of Talledega Nights?
Good discussion! I think it is important to distinguish between God’s active will and God’s permissive will. Nothing happens without falling under one of these two aspects of God’s will. For example, all creation is a result of God’s active will–He actively chose to create. He also acts in very personal ways, as with Moses and the burning bush. He makes Himself known to one person in one moment.
Then there is His permissive will in which He chooses not to interfere with our Free Will, but instead allows us to choose even things which might harm us (both physically and spiritually). However, He always brings a greater good out of those things that constitute evil in this world (war, hunger, poverty, death itself). In the end all good is appropriately rewarded, and all evil too. And in spite or our ability to freely reject Him He knows every hair on our heads and sees every bird fall from the sky.
I’m sure this has been said, but the fact that God is soveriegn is my favorite thing about Him. I truly believe that He is in control, knows all, and every thing that happens is part of His master plan. That doesn’t mean I understand it or like it. And sometimes that doesn’t mean that I’m even able to rest in it (or Him) very well. But He is soveriegn … I don’t think you have have a soveriegn God and then have things that happen that He doesn’t know about. It can’t work both ways.
I think it has all be said by now but I just had to drop in and echo the sentiment – God is sovereign. He is in control of everything and he knows everything before it happens, before we are even born unto this earth.
Hey,
I have read over half the comments here and all I have to say is —
God is OMNI-Everything.
I have seen children called home to him, I have seen middle age called home to him.. I have seen elderly called home to him. As a caregiver I am exposed to many beliefs, understanding and witty people. I don’t know why they are called home when they are — but God knows and wants them home in His time — regardless of how they “go home”. Those I have seen go home — well, they must have something very special on board that God feels is better used up in Heaven then here on our level. Do we like it? Usually, no. We miss those loved ones dreadfully. Even those I barely know I miss — like one gentleman who was in his late 40’s. He was diagnosed with Cancer and within 6 weeks “went home”. His basket of flowers was full *read “A Time to Go Home” on my blog.
Believe and have faith in Him. Isn’t that what it all boils down to?
This is for mouse: I’m going to tell my story on my blog (click “Homepage” next to my name). I hope you’ll read it.
I am timid to post this as I don’t want to sound insensitive or be misconstrued.
Something I realized a few years back is this: I deserve nothing good. If I really get down to the basics, how THANKFUL I am that God doesn’t give me what I deserve. What is ‘fair’.
Pain I’ve had in my life? I deserve much worse, truth be told. Hell is where I DESERVE to be. BUT… God is mercy. Rich, rich, rich mercy.
Why do the painful things that happen to me make me question if He allowed it, if He caused it, etc, etc, etc?
Why not the good things? They make less sense.
It makes no sense whatsoever that I have a husband who showers me with love, that I can run up and down my stairs, that I can taste and savor fried goods. That I can experience enjoyment. It makes no sense. I don’t deserve it.
It’s the good things that happen to me that should make me shake my head at God and say: “Why?”
Honestly people I weep as I type this.
He is love.
I agree that God is sovereign and knows everything. How could He not? To believe otherwise is to state that He has misrepresented Himself in His word, as well as implies weakness.
As for the interstate…God put you there, if you are walking out…He planned it for you before you were born…and hopefully His plan was that with your death, others will be affected and He will put upon their hearts the light of His love.
I also believe that God gave us free will; we have free will to reject Him. And many Christians end up doing just that. But He knows you will, and His plan (hopefully) is that you will learn and he will refine you with your trials.
But we are not God, and I believe that a lot of what people talk about is speculation. We cannot begin to fathom God’s intent or His reasons. I think that those that try to rationalize our God and who think that they have “figured Him out” are essentially saying that they are equal or better than God…which is 1. untrue, and 2. idolatry and blasphemy.
Great topic!
I haven’t commented as of yet since I talked to you about this and you know where I stand, but Shannon got me to thinking about something. I’m not gonna post it here. I will hollar at ya this week.
Ok, really? I just didn’t want the be the only one of your readers who didn’t comment on this provocative topic!!
This is for mouse as well, My testimony is on my site as well under June archives. If I can be of any support for you I am only an e-mail away or a phone call, and if God leads I will come to you, Thats how important you are.
Mouse, not to sound insensitive but yes. All of these things happened to me as well…and I PRAISE God for the trials I had…they have made me who I am today…and they have made me call out to Him even more. I hit the downward spiral, hating, disbelieving…and it is His good grace that brought me back. For all of it, I am forever thankful.
It is easy to praise God when everything is happy and well, but giving Him praise when life is terrible…that is true love…that is what He wants of us.
Satan told God that Job was only faithful because of the blessings God had given him, and that if those blessings were withdrawn, Job would lose his faith. God allowed Satan to test Job. Job lost everything–his animals, his crops, even his children. But still he would not curse God, as his friends recommended, nor would he “admit” that he was sinful and deserved all the tragedies that were happening in his life.
“Though He slay me, yet will I praise Him.”
God did not cause those tragedies, but He did allow them.
Oh how I pray for the faith of Job.
Well I guess I’m on the back end of this intriguing bandwagon. I’ve never posted to your blog Boomama but I’ve been following it for a few weeks now.
I just wanna say that I have certainly wrestled with this question in a big way in the past four months.
On a lovely Monday evening, the third day of April, 2006 (127 days ago) after a disagreement with me and his dad, my 14 year old son went into his room and strangled himself to death.
My son, who as a 5 year old would cry every time he heard the song “People need the Lord”, my bright and funny kid who was raised in the faith (and not just in the church), who knew the Lord and was being raised by two Jesus loving parents, my boy who had everything in the world going for him… gone. And of course the question was, “Where was God that night?” I recently read an answer to this question somewhere. “He was in the same place that He was the day His son died.” On His Sovereign Throne.
God’s ways and thoughts are not our ways and thoughts.They are infinitely higher. I think at the core of the debate is really a question of the character of God. If He’s good, why do bad things happen?
I have spent many a night wondering if Bryant lived out all his days or if his life was cut short. I still don’t know.
God has spoken so many words of truth and comfort to me in these 127 days. I wish I had the time and space to share it all.
Some things we just have to take by faith. It has already been said well by so many here. God is OMNI everything. And suffering is a real and ever present fact of this side of life.
When I come to the end of my understanding of spiritual things I meditate on several passages from the Bible. One is from Job when God speaks and asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?.” The other is from Psalm 131: verses 1-2.
We want answers but God wants our faith.I don’t understand how my microwave works or how an airplane flies but that doesn’t stop me from believing they are what they are and from using them accordingly.
I hope I’m not rambling but I did just want put in my little perspective. Thank you for this forum. Your blog is a joy to follow.
Oh, Sharmayn – that is heartbreaking. Bless you.
The honesty of people like you, Mouse, Kassi, Anne, Clemntine, and mytwocents (just to name a few) has blown me away – thank you for opening your hearts and sharing your stories. I have no doubt that y’all will be in all of our prayers.
God’s grace and peace be with you….
Sharmayn – what a testimony to your faith and love for Jesus. I am praying for you and your husband.
All your posts have given me a lot to think about, actually that is all I have been able to think about today. Clemntine and Paulette I read your blogs and your stories and I truly believe you got it, you know where I am coming from and you have made the bad in your lives good. That is what I want to do, that is the step I want to take. Right now there is fear there to give that trust to God or anyone. I will stay in touch.
boomama last night I just thought I stumbled upon your blog by accident, I was reading someone elses (don’t even remember who’s cause I had just been going from blog to blog) but now I really think there was a reason I ended up at yours, it is full of wonderful Christian ladies with all kinds of different experiences in their lives. Thank you for starting this blog because even though it has made a hundred thoughts and feelings run through my mind at least I am thinking about God and trying to understand Him.
Mouse – It warms my heart to know that you’ve discovered two women who understand specifically what you’ve been through in your life – and you’ve also discovered, though you may not know it yet, countless others who will be praying for you.
Know that God can handle all your fear, all your anger, and all your questions. He can take it. Every bit of it.
Grace and peace to you –
What a great thread, S. Of course I am late posting my comments. I tend to agree with Sue, who is very articulate in her comments. I, like the man you spoke with, take issue with the word “allowed.” I find more comfort in believing that God put things into motion, and he is certainly ALWAYS there with us, but he does not “allow” things like child abuse or torture (those are biggies for me). I think we are actually just talking about semantics, but for me a God who “allows” those things to happen is not the loving God that I worship. God sent Jesus to show us how much he loves us and loves our humanity; he knows we will mess things us because we are human and have free will, but he loves us in spite of ourselves. I can’t imagine that he would allow something so devastating to happen (esp. as child abuse).
I want to commend everyone who has spoken here. What a wonderful, civil thread from people with such differing opinions. Reading this has been a great experience for me.
Hey Liz –
You could’ve not signed your comment and I would’ve known exactly who wrote it :-) (well, it would have been a toss-up between you and Sister, actually). And I have thought about your wise words so many times in the last couple of weeks – because even though I think you and I disagree on some of the finer points of this, I’ve thought about you saying, “Isn’t it great that there are churches for everyone” that day in my kitchen – which was such a model for me about how to respect each other’s differences…and isn’t it great that we can agree to disagree (a little) without the foundations of our faith being shaken?
You and Sue have really helped me understand where the man I was talking too was coming from – and that’s exactly what I was trying to figure out.
Love you, Liz!
p.s. Reading your comment made me wish we were sitting in my house, drinking coffee, and talking about it all in person. But then of course you’d leave to go run or something, and I’d continue to sit in the kitchen and eat bacon. :-)
God would not be God if He was clueless as to the future. People just don’t want to face that THEY are responsible for much of what goes on in their own lives.
BooMama, you’ve piqued my interest. I’ll be back to read more.
Soph, I love you, too! :) I miss seeing you.
I’m sure that all of the comments here have been great…I’ve only read some of them since there are SO MANY!!!
Probably much of what I would have to say to this has already been said. But I will offer this. If you go back to Genesis and look at the verses regarding creating and forming and fashioning. The original greek here is really facinating. Genesis 2:7 does not refer to the same type of creating/forming/fashioning as Genesis 1:1. The kind of forming/fashioning referred to in 2:7 has to do with forming as a sculptor or potter, meaning God put His hands to it. In Psalm 139:16 it is the same word used here (Yatsar) in the fashioning of our days – He puts his hands to it.
If I believed for a moment that the circumstances of my life have been random and without purpose I honestly don’t know that I could wake up and breathe another day.
There’s also another angle on this if you are interested in reading a post that I wrote recently on this topic.
http://jipmeister.wordpress.com/2006/07/22/extra-kidspringlesgods-purposes/
Thankfully God is not ADD but I am so you’ll have to scroll down to the bottom half of that post. :)
I enjoy your blog by the way
I have had far too many amazing things happen to me in my life, thinkgs that make me fall to me knees in gratitude and amazement – god had to have made them happen. No one else could!!